Breaking Barriers: Zara Anita Paul on Non-Binary Leadership in AI and Tech

Zara Anita Paul: 00:00:03

I mean, it sucks and I hate it, but I can spend my time being really upset about it, or I can figure out how to use it to my advantage.

Voiceover: 00:00:15

You're listening to WithAI FM.

Joanna: 00:00:19

Hello! Welcome to Women WithAI, a podcast dedicated to amplifying the voices and perspectives of women in the field of artificial intelligence.

We cover topics from career development to technological breakthroughs, focusing on the unique challenges and successes we face in this rapidly evolving sector.

Today, my guest is Zara Paul, the co-founder and CEO of Choppity, a web-based AI video editor that simplifies the editing process.

Zara, who identifies as non-binary, and their husband, Aaron Morris, founded Choppity to give creators more freedom by making video editing faster and more accessible.

With a background in mathematics, computer science and automation development, Zara is on a mission to eliminate the barriers of slow, complicated tools, empowering creators to create more and edit less. Zara Paul, welcome to the Women WithAI podcast.

Zara Anita Paul: 00:01:06

Hi. Thank you, Jo.

Joanna: 00:01:09

It's lovely to have you here. Maybe you could start for anyone that doesn't know you by sharing a little bit about yourself and your journey into AI.

Zara Anita Paul: 00:01:17

Sure. I think you did a pretty good job of introducing me, but yeah. So I'm Zara. I'm the CEO of Choppity.

I'm an undergraduate dropout and my journey into AI very much started with building creative tools and realising the archaic nature of traditional video editing and wanting to figure out how to speed up the process and make it more efficient and more accessible for creators. I think nowadays, a lot of people see AI as a fix-all solution, and I think a lot of people go into AI thinking about AI first.

AI was not the first thing that we actually thought of. It was something that we were hoping to avoid when we first started out.

Actually, we were just looking at how many things can we automate before we get to the AI part of things. And yeah, so we just really just found a need and a huge benefit to applying AI to a problem.

Joanna: 00:02:27

So how did that. Yeah, so you weren't thinking about AI. You created Choppity. Yeah, to make life easier. I mean. Yeah. How did. It's such an exciting project.

Can you explain what it does?

Zara Anita Paul: 00:02:39

Yeah, yeah, sure. So, Choppity is a browser-based video editor with AI as a pre-processing layer.

And currently it serves the one use case of turning one long video into many shorts for social media. And we're primarily catered towards podcasters and podcasts. They're just our favourite type of content to work with.

And it's just the biggest portion of our community.

So, yeah, we came to it rather than looking for ways to apply AI, we came to it looking for ways to assist people with video editing and make that a lot easier.

Joanna: 00:03:29

I've just realised that when we were just talking before this before I pressed record, and I was saying, we'll do some social clips, and you said, oh, we'll do some social clips. Now, I should be using Choppity. That's what you meant, isn't it?

Zara Anita Paul: 00:03:42

I'll put this episode through afterwards as well. But, yeah, I'm surprised, actually, that we haven't discussed this.

I think when David first started the Creatives WithAI podcast, it was primarily audio only, and only recently have you guys actually been publishing the video as well. Is that right? I mean, I know that, like last year, creators with AI wasn't really publishing the video.

Joanna: 00:04:05

this one in March. It was in: 2024

And straight away, David was like, right, yeah, it will record everything onto YouTube as well. And honestly, I swear, I think the only people that watch it on YouTube is my mum and dad. So here's a little wave my mum and dad, if I'm watching.

But I do want to get better, and maybe this is the reason why I haven't, because I don't know how to create the clips and I do rely on David doing it. So, yeah, I think we need to. Well, I need a lesson on it after this.

Zara Anita Paul: 00:04:41

Yeah, yeah, I'll show you how to use it. But, yeah, and I. I totally get that. I feel like. I feel like primarily the video tends to serve a different kind of audience.

And I think that most podcast listeners tend to listen to podcasts on the kind of traditional, you know, Spotify and Apple podcasts.

And now I feel like I'm having very different conversations with clients who are looking, rather than to grow their podcast, they're looking to reach new audiences. There's like a growing audience segment which primarily consumes media in the short form and so will never convert to the long form.

But if you want to reach them and if you want to grow your brand, that that is just a whole new demographic that you can reach, and you can't do that if you've not got shorts.

Joanna: 00:05:33

I think that's a really good point because I do the same. I find podcasts or other things to listen to by going through Instagram.

And you're right, it's just a little clip and it's probably been suggested because it knows my algorithm.

And then, you know, that's how I found Jamie Lang's podcast, because I didn't know he did a podcast or, you know, I didn't realise he had one that was, you know, different to the one he was doing with his wife. And so it was from the social clip that I was like, oh, I'll give that a listen. So you're right, it does grow.

But I'd see other podcasts and I don't bother listening to them, but I do enjoy watching the clips and maybe that, you know, I'm aware of it and then that makes me sort of more conscious of it or to, to listen to it.

Zara Anita Paul: 00:06:11

Yeah, yeah, the clips or the sort of mid form kind of 15 minute long segments. Yeah, that's as far as I'll usually convert if I'm stumbling across something new. Usually podcast, I'm.

I listen to podcasts either by recommendation or if I'm specifically looking for a topic that I'd like to listen to a podcast about, but very rarely do I convert from, from short form. And I think that's the case with a lot of people.

Joanna: 00:06:33

Yeah. Because a lot of the time it depends on the guest or I imagine people finding this one, it's about the topic. So it's AI. And so, yeah.

How has AI changed since you started Choppity? Did you have to sort of do lots of learning or. Yeah. What's happened?

Zara Anita Paul: 00:06:49

Well, so because I've got computer science background, I think a lot of the principles haven't changed enormously. I think there's been huge advances in application.

Like, I mean, GPT has massively improved in the last couple years since its release and, you know, other tools. I mean, speech to text is getting better and better.

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I think that when ChatGPT first came out, there was this exciting anxious period where people were simultaneously worried about losing their jobs, but also really excited about the potential and all the things that they could do. And I think that that's gradually changed and more and more people are feeling, I mean, I know I'm feeling rather AI fatigued.

I think that a lot of the innovation has promised us a lot more than it can deliver and also has been used again and again as an excuse for cutting back on jobs and cutting back on. Well, yeah, just making people redundant and yeah, I think, I think that that's the biggest thing that I've noticed.

Joanna: 00:08:30

Yeah, because you're right, it is. There's a lot of over promising going on, I think. Well then there's a lot of things that it can do that people are going, oh look, it can do this.

And I just think, so what? Or so boring. But I mean, you know, but it's being portrayed as a job stealer.

From your perspective as a tech innovator, as someone from that background, do you think AI will ever replace human jobs or is it just creating more opportunities?

Zara Anita Paul: 00:08:58

I can't speak for sort of, you know, 25 years plus down the line because we have no idea what AI will look like then. I think, I think the.

So what is an interesting point because I think that where most of the innovation has happened that we are sort of very aware of has happened in the creative mediums. There's a lot going on with sort of data processing and medication creation and all that kind of stuff.

But that was never something that people thought of as being something that replaceable jobs, if that makes sense. Yeah.

Where a lot of the innovation has happened that we all have access to has been in kind of LLMs and image generation and those kinds of things, which I don't think that. I think it's been used as an excuse to cull jobs. But I don't realistically think that it's good enough.

It just isn't good enough to have the final say. And that's actually again, one of the reasons that we were so. Oh, what's the word?

It's one of the reasons that we didn't turn to AI first when we started building our product. And it's also one of the reasons that when we use AI, we try to do it incredibly thoughtfully in Chopper T.

Because I think a lot of these tools and a lot of these products are built with the assumption that AI is going to do everything for you and do it perfectly the first time. And what that means is if it gets it right 50% of the time, then for those 50% that it's gotten right, then that's great and it works.

But for the other 50% that it's not gotten right, then you have to rework it.

And if it's not, if the product's not built in a way that you can rework it easily, then you end up wasting time and it would have been faster for you to just do it on your own. Because the likelihood is that you'll get it right 80 or 90% of the time instead.

And that's where I think there's a big disparity between what AI and AI companies have promised us and what it actually can deliver.

Joanna: 00:11:10

Yeah.

Zara Anita Paul: 00:11:11

And could you.

Joanna: 00:11:12

Yeah. You co founded Chubby Tea with your husband Aaron. Aaron Morris. What's it like working together?

How do you navigate challenges of being business partners and life partners?

Zara Anita Paul: 00:11:22

It's great. I. I think it brings us much closer together.

I couldn't imagine not running a business with Aaron, and I couldn't imagine not running a business with someone that I'm married to.

And yeah, I think there's a lot of people who say, you know, they kind of can't get along with their partners well enough to be able to work full time with them. But actually, I think that's. I think it just speaks to how well we work together, because we just.

We work really well together and we problem solve really well together. And, you know, oftentimes people say that having a co founder relationship is like having a married partner. And it, it just literally is for us.

We just spend a lot of our day together and we just learn to communicate really well. And.

Joanna: 00:12:16

Yeah, but you know, you're right because, you know, there are people in the, you know, in offices and I know lots of people refer to people as all my work husband or my work wife. And it's. Exactly. And it's so hard. You have to. When you go home and you have to explain everything that's going on. Well, your partner already knows.

Zara Anita Paul: 00:12:32

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. One thing is that it's been. It can sometimes be a little bit, oh, I don't know what the word is.

When we're in periods of work that we have to just grind really hard and it's just the two of us, and we kind of work, you know, really long nights and then go home and wake up in the morning and then again work really long nights. We're all really long days where we end up in. We just end up in situations where the only thing we're talking about is work.

Like, we're not separating anymore.

And so we have had a couple of instances where we've had to just completely take the topic off the table and, you know, play games instead or do something else to try and not.

Joanna: 00:13:23

I love that. And I mean, this is. This is Women with AI. That's the name of the podcast.

And I mean, there's often a narrative that men dominate the creation of AI, and that's you know, driven by the patriarchal structures in place and kind of thing. I mean, how do you feel sort of as a non binary person in the tech world? Do you know what challenges have you faced in terms of representation?

Zara Anita Paul: 00:13:47

I hardly see any representation. In fact, I don't think I could name a single non binary founder from the top of my head.

I think I came across one a while ago, but I just, I don't even know their name. We don't see very many. I mean, you don't see any very many female founders either.

I am often interacting with exclusively men or in rooms where there are only men. And I think I'm learning to navigate that.

I think I've spent a little bit of time being hyper aware of the differences and perhaps hypersensitive to being spoken to differently. And I generally have an attitude of where there's a problem, it can be flipped to be a resource or an advantage or an opportunity.

And that's kind of what I'm trying to do now.

I think there's obviously loads of frustrations and my ego gets very bruised with being underestimated, but I know that there are also probably ways that I can work that into the way that I do business. Yeah. And that's what I'm going to be trying to do. What I'm going to try to do.

Joanna: 00:15:09

Now because it must be really frustrating. I know you said before that you just often get referred to as Aaron's wife, which is just, yeah. Beyond irritating.

And any situation, not even like a business situation when, you know, not being seen as a leader in your own right.

Zara Anita Paul: 00:15:27

Definitely, definitely. Aaron and team I've gotten as well.

And yeah, yeah, there'll be loads of instances where men will be talking almost like over me directly to Aaron as opposed to to me and just making inappropriate comments and behaving inappropriately in general. And yeah, but again, I think that, I think it is just the way.

I mean it sucks and I hate it, but I can spend my time being really upset about it or, or I can figure out how to use it to my advantage because there will be a way. And ultimately I can't change the world and the landscape. I'm one person.

Joanna: 00:16:13

Well, I mean all it takes is one step, isn't it? And one person to inspire someone else. And I think that's the point, isn't it?

It's that underrepresentation and making sure that AI is being given data that sort of represents everyone and everything and, and that's the.

I, I don't know if I've spoken about it before on podcast, but I was trying to do my end of year review recently and, and I just, you know, I'd put in all my outcomes and I put in what I, you know, what I wanted to achieve and what I had done and all the rest of it. And I thought, oh, I'll just, I'll just ask ChatGPT. Can you make this sound a little bit better? You know, can you just polish it for me?

And it did it. And then I don't know why it crossed my mind, but I just was. Went back and said, oh, actually, it's not, it's not. Joanna, can you do it for John?

Can you, you know, change it? Oh, my goodness. It flipped it and it just sounded so much better.

And I was like, you know, so I went back and asked it because that's the other thing, isn't it, that I'm learning through all the research I'm doing and people I'm speaking to is, you know, you have to tell it if it's, you know, does something or suggest to do a different way. And I said, well, why have you done it like that? Why is there a difference?

And it said, oh, you know, Chat GPT responded, said, oh, there shouldn't be any difference. And whether it's male or female, you know, a person should just be recognized, you know, for the work they've done. It just.

But it's just historically how the different genders are perceived and it's the communication words that are used.

And men are normally seen as leaders and innovators and, you know, taking control, whereas women are generally seen as team players and support roles and all this. And, and it just, I said, well, let's just pretend that my name's John.

Zara Anita Paul: 00:17:48

Yeah, because actually you told me about that a couple weeks ago and since then I've been, I've been doing the same.

I've been sitting, signing my emails and messages that I've been putting through ChatGPT with different names or just omitting the names entirely just to see how it changes things. But it's really interesting. It kind of reminds me of the sort of Jordan Peterson answer to things.

Jordan Peterson's answer to why the wage gap is actually not representative of inequality. And I'm not one of those people who, you know, dislikes him.

I don't agree with a lot of the things he says, but I can see how being in a bubble that kind of feeds you all of this stuff. I mean, chatgpt is more or less an average of all of the information that's out there on the Internet.

And so I end up not being surprised that a lot of people have, you know, information that's in line with that. But yeah, it is just ridiculous.

Joanna: 00:18:50

Well, I guess you don't have to worry about that at choperty. I mean, you're in a really exciting phase at the moment. What direction do you see the business heading in? Like, what's next on the horizon?

Zara Anita Paul: 00:19:01

Yeah, next is expanding some more use cases. It's growing, growing the product and growing the business. And yeah, I mean, where we want to get to is we want to be the.

We want to do to video editing what Canva and Figma did to graphic design. We basically want to make it as simple and as accessible as possible.

Joanna: 00:19:26

Fantastic. And I'm guessing because it is a creative process and we don't want AI to dampen creativity. So I mean, yeah, I mean it must be inspiring. You.

Are you seeing it like that people are sort of embracing the creative potential?

Zara Anita Paul: 00:19:44

Yeah, I think so. I think so.

I think it's one of those things because I use ChatGPT quite a lot and I often use different image generation models to create, you know, like mockups and stuff, or like placeholder logos, for example, things like that. And I don't think of it as being able to replace creativity. Oftentimes if I just give it a task, it won't do it very well.

I definitely need to guide it in the same way that, you know, if I kind of had 10 hours to sit down and do the task, I would also guide myself and then take inspiration and, you know, it just speeds up the whole workflow, especially for tasks that they require some level of creativity. But the value doesn't come from how beautiful it is or how creative it is. And yeah, I think it's.

Joanna: 00:20:46

Yeah, yeah, no, yeah. It's saving kind of by doing some of the legwork or the grunt work or whatever it is, what you call it, it does.

It gives you more time to be creative, as you say, just to go, well, that isn't actually what I wanted. Can you do it a bit better? I mean, there is a lot of AI companies are getting enormous valuations.

Do you think that they do really offer the value that.

Zara Anita Paul: 00:21:16

No, absolutely not. I think I hear about some of these valuations. I think this is part of the AI hype that I think is unsustainable.

I don't know what's going to happen in the next couple years, but it's definitely.

I mean, it's funny Just today I was having a conversation with someone who was saying that when you look at the most valuable companies in the world, most of them are still producing tangible goods and things that people interact with because we need them. That's the thing that we use the most. And yet when you look at the valuation to revenue ratio of a lot of these AI companies, it's, it's insane.

It's just insane. The amount of money that's being funneled into something that ultimately isn't something that people have a need for.

It's not actually solving a problem for the most part, again, very different for AI that's applied in the medical sector in pharmaceuticals. I think that GPT in large language models was probably the last and most valuable generation model that we have. But just.

Yeah, I don't think that everything in the sort of image generation, video generation, I'm sure there will be a use for stable diffusion at some point. I just don't think we've found it yet. And I think we're pumping money into something that will ultimately not be valuable.

Joanna: 00:22:56

Yeah, everywhere you turn at the moment, it's just AI, isn't it? AI this, AI that, AI on your phone. I mean it's on your phone anyway, but just. I don't know, there's so much out there.

Zara Anita Paul: 00:23:07

Yeah, we were working with this company or are working with this company who instead of using the word AI for artificial intelligence, they use it for augmented intelligence.

And so they have posters that say augmented intelligence instead, where they basically use it to describe anything that's automated, whether it uses an AI component or not. But the point is that it just improves things, improves functionality, speeds things up, makes things easier.

But isn't just throwing AI at anything for the sake of it.

Joanna: 00:23:46

If anyone, as you mentioned on, on YouTube, if anyone's watching it, I can see that you've got people behind you. So you're working in a co working space. I mean, what's that like?

Zara Anita Paul: 00:23:55

Is it.

Joanna: 00:23:55

What's it like running a business in a shared environment like that?

Zara Anita Paul: 00:23:58

So it's actually this particular building has been really lonely for us actually. So it's, it's just Aaron and I in a co working space with there's. There's one other person in this room of like 30 desks.

And so I think they've sort of co working sense of promise, community and interacting with lots of people who are doing what you're doing. And yeah, these past couple of months has been quite lonely. We're actually moving into another space.

We're Moving into this collective called Plugged. They're going to be setting up at the Shawlage Exchange and it's a collective of founders that are all going to be in one space, which is just great.

They actually, they have parties once a month. We went to our first one on Saturday.

And it's just incredibly motivating to get to speak to other people who are on the startup journey, who are experiencing what it is to be a founder. It's one thing to speak to people who are freelancing or running businesses at different stages or different scales.

It's another thing to be talking to early stage startup founders.

Joanna: 00:25:11

Yeah, that's nice. Yeah. Well, what would you say?

What's the most rewarding thing that's happened to you, do you think, like from working with AI or sort of being a founder?

Zara Anita Paul: 00:25:20

Oh, I think it's the impact has been really rewarding just having customer interviews and speaking to our customers and finding out that, you know, work that used to take them days, they can now do in an hour and they can spend the rest of their time doing things that they actually really love, rather than. Yeah, just the cumbersome video editing, which I don't know anyone who actually enjoys doing.

Which is also an interesting sort of paradigm because I think it's one of those things that people feel negatively about. And so our aim is to get people to use our products kind of as little as possible, which is. Yeah, just an interesting, an interesting paradigm.

Joanna: 00:26:21

Yeah, because you're right, because it's kind of thing. I imagine at the beginning you think, oh, this is fun.

And then you're like, oh no, I've got to watch this again and I'm going to have to stop it and do it and Chopsy will just take all the, the stress out of that. And I think I find it really interesting that it wasn't even, you know, you didn't set it up, as you said, as an AI company.

It was, you know, just setting it up and then obviously using AI.

Zara Anita Paul: 00:26:45

Well, that's also another interesting thing, which is that AI is probably the least impressive component of what we're doing. I think it's great. And I mean it does what it's supposed to do and is a great pre processing step.

But the reality is the editor is the part that is, I mean, that was the bit that was most difficult to build, but it's also the bit that is most useful.

It's the fact that everything is really flexible and intuitive and easy and performant and isn't very cluttered with A whole bunch of stuff like traditional video editors are brilliant.

Joanna: 00:27:22

So what do you think the future holds for. I mean, not for Chopstick, but for sort of AI. Do you think it's just going to sort of take a little bit of a background?

Zara Anita Paul: 00:27:32

I think people are starting to use it more thoughtfully. I don't know how much of a background it will take. I think that it's still a buzzword and it's still a buzzword that people are using.

I think that consumers aren't as excited about it as they once were. I don't actually know about the fundraising landscape because we're bootstrapped and planning to stay bootstrapped.

So I don't know how the funding is going to develop in the next sort of couple of years, but I know that. So we were at IBC this year, the International Broadcast Convention. I think it's a convention rather than conference, and.

And it's basically, it's Europe's biggest tech convention for broadcast, for the broadcast industry. And I was surprised not to see that much AI. There were some, but I was surprised not to see anything sort of new.

And I spoke to a producer who said that he went around and he noticed that, I mean, some companies were just straight up saying, we've not innovated this year, we've just made our processes better, we've just improved on the things that we already have.

And I definitely think that's a helpful step back that a lot of companies need to take, which is you don't need to just always be pushing at the forefront of innovation and building AI for the sake of AI and integrating AI for the sake of AI. I think you need to be improving the things that you already have and actually making. Making what you have truly valuable.

Joanna: 00:29:20

Yeah, 100% agree. That's a really good point, because you're right. Otherwise it's. Yeah, it is going to take over.

Zara Anita Paul: 00:29:27

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. I think.

boom of whatever year it was: 2020

But I think it ebbs and flows, it comes and goes in waves, and there will be moments where another company is going to release something innovative that everyone can use all the time. I mean, I don't know. I don't know if anything will reach the scale that ChatGPT has reached.

Um, but I think that as soon as the hype dies down again, people start realizing and having a more realistic expectation of how they can. They can truly use these things.

Joanna: 00:30:18

Yeah. Because I'm hoping it is, you know, it is just a tool. It's not taking over, it is giving us a chance to be more creative.

I mean, that's the bit that excites me. It's kind of. Oh, well, actually, it saved me a bit of time, but it's just knowing you've got to check it.

You can't just trust it, depending on what you're using it for. You know, I saw someone the other day and tried to create a poster and of course it didn't get the words.

Everything was a bit blurry, it just looked a bit frightening. And there's lots. People just need to stop worrying.

Zara Anita Paul: 00:30:46

Yeah, I think so as well. I mean, what I often think is that imagine if we didn't have an everyday item that everyone uses all the time.

Imagine if kettles didn't exist and then suddenly now, in the age of the Internet, someone invented a kettle. Like, I feel like it would also take on that same level of hype. Or like fridges. You know what I mean? Something like that.

And then at first it would be, like, crazy and people would start coming up with, you know, insane things that don't really make sense. And then people would start just using kettles for what they're for and making proper use of them.

Joanna: 00:31:20

Yeah. Not boiling eggs in them or trying to do other ridiculous things. Steaming over.

Zara Anita Paul: 00:31:25

My stepdad used to make pasta in.

Joanna: 00:31:27

Kettles, actually, that sort of thing. You're always supposed to check a kettle if you go and stay. I've heard horror stories of what you can find in it.

Don't ever just, like, boil it or just make sure you look in it before you fill it up with water.

Zara Anita Paul: 00:31:41

Or you do like a flush. A flush boil.

Joanna: 00:31:45

Yeah. And then if someone has been cooking pasta or eggs or anything, just boils it all out. Oh, brilliant. Oh, Zara.

I mean, for people who want to sort of dive deeper into choppity, where's the best place to find you? Or I guess, I mean, we'll put a link in the show notes as well.

Zara Anita Paul: 00:32:04

Yeah. I mean, you can. You can see our website, chopperty.com and you can head over to the contact page.

I'm moderately active on LinkedIn, so you can find me there. My username is Zara. Anita. One word, as in the URL. Slug bin. I Don't know what they call that.

And yeah, otherwise you can email me@zaraoperty.com as well.

Joanna: 00:32:29

Brilliant.

Zara Anita Paul: 00:32:30

And I respond to all of my emails. I like receiving emails. I was hesitant about that for a second. But I do like receiving emails from real people.

Joanna: 00:32:40

Yeah. No AI bots need apply.

Zara Anita Paul: 00:32:42

Yeah, exactly.

Joanna: 00:32:45

And I think you're going to be. You mentioned the other show that you're at, but this year you're going to be at the Media Production and Technology show, is that right?

And the podcast.

Zara Anita Paul: 00:32:53

That's right, yeah. Yeah. Going to be at the podcast show and. Yeah. And at mbts. I think those are the only shows that we've got planned.

Joanna: 00:33:01

They're both in May, aren't they? Because that's where we met. That's where we first met was at the podcast show. Yeah.

Zara Anita Paul: 00:33:07

I'm not sure that we'll be exhibiting again, actually, at the podcast show. I think it's just taken a little bit more organisation than I've had the energy for. But I'll have a look at that. I'll see you.

Joanna: 00:33:18

Well, I think. Yeah, I'll be there. Just walking around trying to speak to as many people as possible, I'm sure.

And hopefully I'll have learned how to use Choppity by then. Making lots of clips and people.

Zara Anita Paul: 00:33:29

I can spend some time with you and teach you.

Joanna: 00:33:31

That'd be amazing. Oh, Zara, it's been wonderful to have you on the show.

Zara Anita Paul: 00:33:35

It has. Thank you so much, Jo.

Joanna: 00:33:37

You've enjoyed it. So, Zara Paul, thank you for coming on Women WithAI.