E5 - The Symbiosis of Technology and Human Touch in Storytelling with Natalia Talkowska

00:00 - Joanna Shilton (Host)

Hello and welcome to Women with AI. I'm really looking forward to speaking to today's guest, but before we jump into the podcast, let me tell you a little bit about her. Our guest today is Natalia Talkowska. Natalia is an award-winning serial entrepreneur and the visionary CEO and founder of Natalka Design, a strategic storytelling agency, and she has spent over a decade helping the biggest brands communicate their sometimes complex and big ideas through visual storytelling. She's a global strategic communications specialist and six times TEDx speaker, and Natalia's launched two podcasts, Draw Pod and Resist the Usual, where she likes to challenge conventional thinking and empower people to embrace a more human approach to storytelling.

00:39

Natalia also launched Doodleledo, an immersive social event experience to help people connect through the joy of drawing, which is now spread across 25 countries. She's an accomplished creative and art director, visual innovator, a guest lecturer at London and Central Saint Martins and the University of the Arts, and an expert in residence at Imperial College. And that's not all. Her latest venture is Visualise Futures, offering insights to encourage using AI breakthroughs in everyday business. So, I'm hoping she's going to tell us about all of that in our chat today. Natalia Talkowska, welcome to Women with AI.

01:12 - Natalia Talkowska (Guest)

Thank you, oh my God. I need to steal that line from you, Joanna, because it's just the best introduction ever. I'm a busy person. I need to chill no, I think it's fantastic.

01:22 - Joanna Shilton (Host)

ness, Natalka Design, back in: 2011

01:44 - Natalia Talkowska (Guest)

Oh, have I, you know, one day? I feel like I have one day. I'm fighting it. I'm just like any other person trying to figure it out. Where should we start?

01:54 - Joanna Shilton (Host)

I mean start with the talk of design. Is that the beginning?

01:57 - Natalia Talkowska (Guest)

. Yes, I started the business: 2012

03:00

But I tweeted a businessman, a charity owner, called Darren Robson, who, for weird, magical way, said yes to meeting me for a coffee, although I had no background, no kind of you know, full-on CV or anything like that. I was miserable, sitting in a startup, getting underpaid and just thinking about my life. What do I do with it? And I need to definitely do something more with it met me for coffee at 7 am all across London, so I was like I better impress that person, whoever he is. And, long story short, it was one of those power hours, I think, in one's life where you first time you feel like you've been seen your ideas, your passion, your, you feel like you matter, you feel like someone can see something in you that you can't see yet. And how that manifested itself is basically he told me to wrap it up quickly. You're stupid not to do something with this. Whatever this is, you've got a talent. I've got connections. I work with different people. Here's my number sort yourself out, make a website, get a business card whatever kids are doing these days and call me.

04:08

And I was very terrified because it's not a movie, I'm not Cameron Diaz to just throw everything away and, you know, start a new life, as many of us are scared to do sometimes. So what we agreed on is him supporting me, basically without any form, any agreement, nothing for the next six months, financially as well, just to get my basics in place, get my bills paid, literally. And my job was to get out there, run around, tell people what I do, what I'm passionate about. How can I help? That's the main question: how can I help in your world? And he decided to mentor me for the next six months, which I've never experienced mentoring, so I didn't know what that was.

04:49

And long story short, here I am doing it for 13th year now with a team with awards in the belt, with amazing projects, clients from all the footsie 100 brands, googles, disney's of this world, to uk government, to royal family, and just it's a wild, wild west, I would say. But um, at the core of it, it started from someone just paying attention to another human, giving them a moment of their time and seeing something in them. So that's just been since then, the core of why I exist on this planet, and I continue to do that through his legacy, because he passed away last year, with everything that I do Mentoring, creating projects that hopefully, can help people.

05:35 - Joanna Shilton (Host)

Thank you for sharing that. That's really inspirational. I think that just shows the power of the human connection. And just to explain as well, so you help companies visualise what they're saying. So you draw, don't you, what their strategy or what they're doing? And you go to events and I understand you'll draw what's happening or what they're saying and sort of, yeah, visualise the spoken word. So I guess you just you're doing that yourself. How has AI changed that? Does it help? Are you? Does it help?

06:08 - Natalia Talkowska (Guest)

oh, does it help? Um, it does help in many different ways the business. So, like you just said, that's how I started. I was running around with pens back in the day and visualising key points of what people talk about in real scenarios and live scenarios, which would be events, sessions, workshops, prime minister speeches. I feel like I covered every conversation under the sun. Nothing will surprise me, even the scary parts that I know about the world now and it kind of quickly developed into something more.

06:37

So why do we call ourselves strategic storytelling agencies? Because there's a lot of, first of it's, problem solving. So I love problem solving, I love talking to people and I love to find out what doesn't work. What is the problem, what could be better, what is the kind of place where they're uncomfortable and they don't see results and kind of where we, where we are in the space is usually lack of engagement, something is not landing, the conversation is not happening, the pitch is not being won, the strategy no one reads, it is boring, the campaign is kind of doesn't have any views and the event is not very memorable. So it kind of started from just running around events and scribing and it became into this very, I would say widespread in terms of execution strategy first consulting on what's the problem and then kind of finding ways beyond the graphics, I would say, because it could be anything from projections, animation, huge art, stands and pieces, kind of statements, let's say, for can lion or anything like that, to tell that that's at the core of it. What's the story and why should people care to read that story?

07:49

And AI, you know, as we know, like officially, has suddenly spun out and everyone's going crazy and what is chat, gpt, and everyone's a bit scared to lose their jobs and their place in the world. But as far as I know, and I bet you guys know, ai has been going on for many, many years before it became public, which fascinates me, because when you actually listen to people's stories in the business for so many more years in the business in the mix than I have been, it's fascinating that it's been going for over a decade behind the scenes and very much at the level that we see now. It's just now like public can touch it and everyone's freaking out right, um, but how it improved the business, I would say, and I have to say improved is because, uh, I I kind of want ai to help me to work better, faster and help my clients to um use their creativity more, rather than us sitting through the kind of admin heavy stuff for too long. So how we use it is definitely for ideation. We love to kind of bring that part to the story, using, you know, tools that everyone knows, like Dali and Midjourney and I can't wait to get my hands on Sora and all these other tools but ideation, problem solving, so kind of taking that client through the process in a much more also, I would say, creative, immersive way and getting rid of the kind of things that we need to do anyways and just getting to that place faster. I don't want to spend too much time on admin. Thank God for AI in that sense.

09:23

So I'm one of those people, and a lot of creatives in my space and agency owners fear all these changes, but I'm one of those people that I'm like let me. Let me like drive the car. I don't want to be, you know, left out. I want to be part of the conversation, I want to test it aloud.

09:40

I don't want to believe this is like all the end in gloom and doom of our jobs, because as long as we live in a system that requires us to earn money and spend money. We'll have to somehow earn the money, unless someone wants me to just have a flat earning for 10k a month. Whatever you want to give me government and I'll go buy this E&P all day. If that's not happening, then we all need to actively still be part of the work flow. So what does that mean? I don't know. It's changing rapidly and certain jobs will go for sure. There's even a website recently that you can upload your CV and it will tell you what are the chances of you being replaced by ai and by when. So you know, people are playing with all these tools these days and some just give us fear, and some are useful, some are useless. Um, but again, beyond anything, I just want to be part of the conversation because it's fantastic, my brain.

10:39

As you say, it's better to be driving the car you don't want to be left behind or in the passenger seat although you don't know what's the fuel, joanna, and like you're not really sure what's going on with the car, like is that a car that's? Am I being tracked in that car? Is it you know? Like, do I even have control over the car? That's another conversation. But at least I want to be driving then kind of in the back.

11:02 - Joanna Shilton (Host)

I think you're right, I think you know you've got human creativity versus ai and the thing is the ai is only as good as what's being fed into it anyway.

11:09

It can't think like a human can. It's not going to spot the differences or the new ideas and the way to visualise something. You know when you've got that pen in your hand. If you ask you know an ai tool to do it, it's going to be something completely different and that's the thing you need the human element, and I think you're right, it's getting involved with it now, because back in the start of the you know the 20th century, people worried that the typewriter would put people out of work. You know it was like the machines are here to take our jobs. You know you're not going to be able to write anymore and do that, and you know maybe they did take those jobs. But then people find you change the way you work or you change what you're doing and you grow with it and you embrace it and I think that's the way forward. So can you tell us a little bit more about Visualise Futures?

11:56 - Natalia Talkowska (Guest)

visualised futures. Yeah, that's a fun project that started from just kind of an idea me and henry cotino mason. He's an author of the future, normal and a, as he calls himself, reluctant future. I'm kind of his pr. I love it, you know, because, like I love what he does, and last year, me and him, we found ourselves in having slightly a bit more time during summer, which is very rare, but we thought like, okay, we've got some time, let's get together. Uh, we have the same interest in bringing these stories to life in different ways.

12:27

Henry's more of a writer, I'm more of a visual journalist of you know kind of the world and what I observe and what I see. But we're both curious and we're both talking about it in rooms already, on stages. So why not do it together? And basically, it's very much people first, because that's always going to be important for me, that people are involved in this whole conversation. We are involved because we made it. We might as well.

12:53

People first strategies for different parts of the businesses to kind of see where the AI actually is useful, what tools are out there, what tools are meaningful, what tools are really changing the game right now.

13:05

Many, many of those tools and approaches we don't even know about because they're not in the main media stream, like, yes, we all know Chat-GPTs and Dall-es of this world, but there's a lot of innovations that are blowing our minds and me and Henry travel a lot and speak about it.

13:21

He's been basically he's going now sorry to Riyadh in Middle East next month to launch our hospitality chapter of Visualise Futures. We're talking all about innovations in hospitality space, which are crazy and people are loving there because it's basically it's such a huge part of that district, of that region. And now we're focusing very much on chapter around healthcare, which again blows my mind the you know, augmented assistance, the AI tools that doctors are bringing to their work, you know, literally looking at, of course, neuralink and all these big, big, big. You know, literally looking at, of course, neuralink and all these big, big, big, you know plans that Elon Musk has, but also down to tiny products and tiny innovations that can change someone's health and someone's well-being, and looking down into focusing on patients and their experience and what is AI bringing.

14:14

It's just like a geek inside Jonas, I can talk about it all day. But yeah, from kind of creating a SAP stack piece where we just write and visualise these and create a story and narrative around all these innovations, we're finding ourselves much more and more getting interest from businesses and companies and conferences to talk about it, to share all these insights, to run workshops for companies and literally look with them at what's their situation, what could we improve on, what sort of tools could be useful, what is definitely not useful and it's been really interesting to be in that space again and kind of it almost doesn't matter that you know I draw and I visualise. It's kind of what these visualisations and narratives are creating, what sort of conversations they're opening, what sort of ideas they're, um, getting people to think about. So that's kind of. Again, I'm just curious about conversations I love it.

15:10 - Joanna Shilton (Host)

I love that you describe yourself and Henry as two curious humans exploring the opportunities that AI is creating.

15:18 - Natalia Talkowska (Guest)

I yeah, we like to call ourselves humans also because one of my theories for the future is very utopian. It's that what about what if in the future, anything hashtag made by humans would be actually possible to be like accredited and checked, just like we have b corp right now? Everyone wants to be a b corp organisation and it's timely, it's costly, it's important. The moment you get it, you're like on a different level as a business. You get a different investment, different interest, all that stuff. What if, in the future, anything made by humans would be much more expensive, attractive, rare than AI? Because I suddenly will become just like a phone connection, the internet came, phones came, now AI came. So what if?

16:12 - Joanna Shilton (Host)

I just like to kind of play with these concepts and these futures and not looking necessarily at all of us, you know, I think that's a much better way to look at it and I think, if we keep that idea and that vision, then I think you know we're on our way to making sure that that's what happens, because I don't want to be taken over by the robots, but I think, yeah, if we can use it to save time, to make our jobs easier. And you're right, it's like any artist or anyone, any profession professional you know, that's worked and honed their craft. It's like the, the saying, isn't it? You know it's like well, why is it so expensive? It's only taken you like five minutes to do this and it's like well, to you.

16:47

It may have taken me five minutes to put together your event or tell you how to do this or draw this picture, but actually it's taken, you know 20 years of of actually doing it. It's taken like you know you know three, four, five years at university or studying or doing. You know classes and you've learned that and that's what you know ChatGPT or all these other generative AIs and the drawing and the art ones. They haven't done that and everything's going to start looking the same.

17:15 - Natalia Talkowska (Guest)

That's the thing I mean. We have to like, remember that ChatGPT is just a big washing machine of what we've already done. So if we want to bring any sort of innovation and creativity into our world and continue on that, we always say with Henry and very much that's what I speak about all day long as well in terms of AI is can you still make sure that you own those creative ideas? And what I mean by that is, when I work with clients and I have a session, we always ask them to bring their ideas. Even if it's a scribble, if it's a piece of writing, if it's a post-it note, if it's a just concept that they said, I still want your ideas. You're a very relevant piece of almost. Like, if you want to think about a human, it's tech. It's a fabulous piece of tech, actually naturally built. When you think about it, all the technology and everything around us is very much inspired by humans and nature and how we work. It's all connected. It's nuts. So I always say, like, can you still start from your creativity and then let's elevate that to a crazy level. If you wanted to, let's bring that scribble into a beautiful visual. Let's bring that pieceable into a beautiful visual. Let's bring that piece of writing into a book. Let's bring that piece of concept into a product that we can develop. Sap right so, but it's.

18:27

I think it's so, so important that we, if we want to feel relevant and part of the conversation, can we still own those ideas and start from here and then go out there?

18:36

And we still need to read books, we still need to meet other people to bounce ideas, we still need to travel. We still have a long way to go. And also, let's remember the innovation and technology is very unevenly dispersed. Just because we live in London, very lucky to be here in that bubble of innovation, or someone's in San Francisco, singapore, tokyo, new York, that's a different ball of game than even going to countries where they're just starting using phones or there's no internet, or AI is kind of like something that TV starts to talk about slowly. So let's take into account as well the kind of collective understanding of what this is, because I could go, let's say, travel tomorrow somewhere and start doing my crazy geeky chatter and someone will be like, hmm, you know, and it just brings you a bit down. In terms of bubble is one thing, but just be open to what's happening in the world in general and what's the levels of involvement in that and understanding. I love that.

19:36 - Joanna Shilton (Host)

That's great, and you're right, it's the data that's being fed in is everything that's happening, and that's why AI is good at predicting, isn't it? You're giving it something and then it's looking for patterns. It's predicting, and that's why it's great in the healthcare industry, so I think that it's going to be so valuable there. It's just, you know, you still need the human person, I think, to check it afterwards, don't you? Just, you'll have fed it everything to look at, but you still need to have, and I think, as a patient, you probably want that human element. As you say, if you want a piece of artwork or something that's been produced by a human, you also, I think, want to know that it's not just a computer, it's not just a piece of AI that's given you your medical diagnosis. It's kind of done it, it's used, all the stuff that's been fed.

20:21 - Natalia Talkowska (Guest)

But you've still got that doctor as well. That's done that. Yeah, I mean, you're totally touching, joanna, on one of the pieces that we describe in, uh, visualised futures for healthcare, anything around augmented empathy. So we're looking at tools and that that can bring the doctor and the ai co-pilot, as they nicely diplomatically call it, because all the language you have to notice is very diplomatic and very soothing. There's nothing scary around it. It's a co-pilot. I'm not taking over, I'm just assisting, right.

20:46

So one of the tools for example recently we looked at is called Bridge in US and doctors have been using more and more in terms of that, ai being the assistant, the co-pilot that's literally noting everything that's happening in that meeting with the patient and, finally, enough, the data says that the patient really, really enjoys AI putting all the notes into place from what the doctor is saying. But equally, the doctor needs to look at all these notes. They need to approve it. Sorry, there's no kind of AI, only diagnosis and off we go. Go because at the end of the day, let's be honest, we're all humans, we're all very emotional, we all trust another human.

21:25

If there's a doctor, that's like the beacon of trust, isn't it right?

21:29

When it comes to our health, we're so, um, fragile and we, if something happens, we need to know.

21:35

But equally, the data says that ai assistant is noting everything endlessly, professionally and being able to even translate it to us from a super difficult kind of diagnosis to literally tapping into. Can you translate this for me, like to a five-year-old, so I can understand? I don't need to call that doctor five times a day. It's actually shown that it really works in that sense of doctor, co-pilot, ai and then the patient, and then the doctor is still there to approve, it is still there to use their brains, is still there to make these decisions and is still there to soothe that patient with that human aspect. So I don't think we're going to be seeing anytime soon again a robot rocking up patient in a, you know, in a hospital, um, but we will be seeing more and more of that assistance and that almost helping the patient to get more information, be more informed, empowered, and you know how often, joanna, do we feel sometimes where we go outside of the doctor's office yeah, I don't know what he said right.

22:39

So it's just empowering both sides and kind of again showing that the person and the robot and the AI can all work together in peace and hopefully that's. That's the kind of, let's say, space we're going to be seeing more and more again very unevenly dispersed, because if you look at you know london, it might come down to New York la, whatever right it might happen in terms of tests. When we look at you know London, it might come down to New York, LA, whatever right it might happen in terms of tests.

23:01 - Joanna Shilton (Host)

When we look at many countries even in Europe, probably still a long time, because you're right, if people aren't as aware as we are, then you know it is going to take time to trust it because it's different, isn't it? For different countries as well? So, yeah, there'll be a bit of slowness to the takeoff, I'm guessing. But, um, we'll put links to everything to this in the show notes so everyone can see all your fabulous drawings and how it's working and the different chapters of, uh, visualised futures and um. But just to spin back when you were talking about people bringing ideas to you and like that human touch and like if it's a scribble on a post-it note or that kind of thing, is that how you got the idea for Doodleledo, which I love the name of, by the way? I've been practising saying it.

23:42

But so these are immersive experiences and they kind of are they sort of team building events? Sorry, I've got a bit of a cough there. Are they team building events? Or tell us, tell me all about it, because I think it sounds fantastic, because I'm the classic person. You know. I did go to art college and I did ceramics, I did sculpture, so I'm the classic person, you know. I did go to art college and I did ceramics, I did sculpture. So I'm the classic person who would say I can't draw, so I know that you want, you want to finish that. That's not. That's not true, is it? Everyone can draw yeah.

24:13 - Natalia Talkowska (Guest)

No, it's funny how Doodleledo has this kind of almost like revival. It's very interesting what is happening to it because that's a project that we started as part of again on the fringe, as I call it, of the business. Natalka design is the core business storytelling and helping people feel seen, but everything we do around it is to feed to that. And diddly-doo started 10 years ago now and at the beginning was purely me running around and wanting to kind of come out of that B2B space where we cater to amazing clients and it's very private and it's very NDA and lovely. Things are happening, powerful things are happening behind the scenes impacting people. But I was really, really keen on meeting new people, getting kind of like all these people into one room and I heard so much the whole like I can draw, I'm useless, I'm not creative and all that, and I was like, ah, you, you guys talk about it. I don't believe in it. Everyone's creative and it doesn't matter how you draw, it matters how you think. It matters how you use your brain, it matters how you train your critical thinking. It matters how you decided to choose to take this road today versus this road to school to get your kid back from school because maybe that road is much more green or more interesting or has more winding roads and you can meet one more neighbour on the way. So that is creativity to me. And it started 10 years ago. It had that sort of first layer of let's all draw, let's all connect. Always the purpose was for people to connect. I'm a huge connector and community builder and I believe in that full-heartedly. It changes people's lives and, um, we've at some point then grew into 25 countries. Literally people were starting to ask me left and right, can I start in toronto, can I start in new york? And I was just like, yeah, sure, and it's still running in a few countries and apparently someone got married through it. I don't know like I feel like I can now retire, like literally my job is done.

26:00

But connecting with, with visualised futures and where we're taking it with henry now into, you know, more focused spaces, I've been asked more and more to bring it to companies and to use it, as you said, as a team building amazing tool, for team building is just basically the data shows, it's play, it's creativity, it's connecting with people, it's breaking silos, it's all that amazing stuff that more and more, we've got, literally now, new laws coming in into companies where well-being needs to be looked at and supported beyond just a well, there's some yoga once a month somewhere on the rooftop, or access to an app that no one wants to use to meditate. And also, now it takes off this kind of space of AI, because we're bringing visualised futures with Doodleledo into rooms that can be more than 1,000 people, literally. So, Henry's going to be like launching that in the Middle East, and we'll be bringing into events and workshops where, again, we're starting with ideas, we're starting with scribbling and doodling. Whatever is the concept, whatever we want to create, whatever is the problem we want to.

27:15

And then let's take all these AI tools and elevate your idea, empower you to believe you are that creative and you are that amazing, and make that into a graphic, make that into a huge tapestry, make that into a video, put you in that video, tell a story that people will be like, whoa, what is that about? So I'm just again curious how all these tools are starting and all these projects are starting to connect between one another and for the opportunities that visualised futures will have. Um, you know, and Doodleledo will bring us an immersive experience. Um, I'm excited because it can just tell the masses that they can create and they can turn their ideas from like this, like dodgy scribble that you're so shy about, to something really, really empowering. So my job is to constantly just empower people and make them believe that they can do things.

28:09 - Joanna Shilton (Host)

We all thrive better if we believe that I feel empowered, I feel inspired.

28:17 - Natalia Talkowska (Guest)

Definitely. Maybe we can make one. Who knows, I'm gonna keep doodling or start doodling, keep doodling and just yeah, prove that I can draw.

28:23 - Joanna Shilton (Host)

We can all draw. Um, where can people, where can the audience, where can they find sort of resources and things about this? Have you got anywhere that you suggest people sort of find out more about this? I mean mean, we'll put links to your website and everything as well, but yeah, is there any sort of further thoughts around this or reading you can suggest?

28:45 - Natalia Talkowska (Guest)

Yeah, no, of course. So if you want to go purely to Visualise Futures, it's a sub stack and feel free to leave a link. Everything is there. If you want to get in touch with me or Henry, we're there. We're constantly there behind the scenes. I is there. If you want to get in touch with me or henry, we're there. We're constantly there behind the scenes. Um, I'm very active on linkedin, so, under my name, under business name and, of course, the website, natalka design, we're on socials everywhere with natalka design as well. So there's there's actually too many ways to get in touch, joanna. Uh, because I'm just again kind of, you know, too curious and exploring every single.

29:12 - Joanna Shilton (Host)

I love it. I love that on your website you've got the little like say hi thing in the bottom corner where people could click on it. You do a little, you know, like explain who you are, say hello, and then I invite people to send you links back. Do many people send you the video, or do they just write, or do they? What do they do?

29:30 - Natalia Talkowska (Guest)

yeah, you know what? This is? A fascinating data. I talked about it recently with my friend when I went to south by southwest joel and he got in touch through the little video um prompt and actually when I look at data and and kind of what happens, so many people are shy about video, many people don't really use it. Mostly they use text, then they use voice, then they use video and it's fascinating because the video is the most powerful way you can connect with another human when it comes to communication. Then it's a still visual some sort of, then it's voice, then it's writing, it's just in terms of, like, most of us that's how we respond. I'm not saying everyone, but most of us. So to give a little tip, if you even are a bit awkward about leaving any video message, try to challenge yourself because the outcome will be the best If you really care to say hi to 10 people, see what you get out of video and see what you get out of 10 text messages.

30:30 - Joanna Shilton (Host)

No, I think that's a very good challenge.

30:32 - Natalia Talkowska (Guest)

Maybe I'm wrong.

30:32 - Joanna Shilton (Host)

Yeah, challenge our audience to do that and come back to us, because I think you're right, especially since lockdown, it's been so easy. It's obviously so easy to text someone you know that they'll read it or you're reading it yourself. But I think the power of the video call as well, and I find now, like with my family, we always do video calls just all the time and if someone's driving and you happen to, just you actually have to speak to them. You're like, oh no, but hang on, I can't see your face, I can't see your reaction. I can't do you know, you don't know what I'm doing, I can't show you this. I know. I definitely agree with the video angle, even though I did say earlier that I'm not over the moon, that we're on YouTube. But I think, why not? Because that's how people get to, to know you and see what you look like and, yeah, there's that human connection exactly and you know, you are such a more real form to me right now, like as in Joanna.

31:20 - Natalia Talkowska (Guest)

There's your face, you move, you speak.

31:22

I can imagine you and kind of lock you in my brain much better way than if you were just an email or you were like a dry message on linkedin or something.

31:30

And of course that would even be more empowering if we met in person. So there's these layers of connection and I would say, like, even like two weeks ago, david kindly joined our creative evening we did in design district and it was in person and it was, from the feedback that I'm getting, it was one of the favourite parts of everyone's month because we met in person and it's something that we think is kind of going away because of the what technology is doing to us and how it can isolate us. But actually, again, until my last day, I'll be always a supporter of community building, of meeting in person and having that always as part of our human experience, because, again, that's when we're more happy, we thrive more, we come up with better ideas and we feel like we belong more. Otherwise we're all sitting in little cubicles trying to talk, to chat gpt, and it's not good for our brains and our ways yeah, people first.

32:22 - Joanna Shilton (Host)

That should be our strategy for everything. Yeah, AI can help us, but yeah, it's people first um natalia. Thank you so much for coming on. Women with ai it's been so much fun to speak to you. I've really enjoyed it. I hope you have too. And yeah, we'll have to get you back on so we can hear how everything's going.

32:40 - Natalia Talkowska (Guest)

Thank you so much, joanna. You were brilliant. I'm really pleased to be part of it.

32:44 - Joanna Shilton (Host)

Thank you very much.

32:45 - Natalia Talkowska (Guest)

And congratulations on launching it.